Can we get a more powerful Zipatile/Zipabox version for Pro installers using RK3399chipset?
The biggest thing that bugs me is when a company builds a product with minimum specs to save money. It may function ok now, but what about in 5 years or 10 years time? You cant update software, you can't upgrade apps, it basically becomes unusable due to outdated hardware. For the average DIYer this may be acceptable, as an integrator's I can't offer this solution to customers. I mean alot of apps dont support android 4 anymore, next is 5, are we going to see an update to 6 or 7? It would also solve the usb to ethernet connection issues
So can Zipato build a second Zipatile or zipabox, that has a more powerful backbone? I would suggest a rk3399 with 3/4gb ram. This would allow the Zipatile to be used as a control interface for many other solutions that have a high GUI and processor power requirements. And will help to keep the unit up-gradable in the future. And quite frankly I dont give a damn if it cost $100 more and uses an extra 2 watts of power.
I mean for gods sack, look at this http://www.gearbest.com/tv-box-mini-pc/pp_609345.html
how can this not be turned into a new zipamini, just add a Zwavemeusb? How about an option to buy a software licence to download and install it on our own components? Include licence, product key, server registration, whatever you need.
I like this idea 
Wow Adrian. What a great recommendations. Im sure Sebastian will read the post, on the other hand can imagine that the code is so complicated that they nearly struggle to keep the current hardware's properly working.
What buggers me the most is that after an update some serious things can go wrong that takes time to fix. For example some of the new zipatiles after android upgrade, when you reboot and 1st time the display turns off, you cannot get back it on until you restart. This is now nearly 2 weeks old problem and they only now probably have the fix for it. So it takes time. Which is the most shame as there are so many functionalities that can be developed and would be amazing features. Take just simply some more virtual devices:
like virtual shutter control (window with venetian blind, garage door),
virtual audio player,
presence stimulating scene
not even mentioning the PLUG-IN feature, where 3rd party could be developing own plugins that can be for even sale - similar to homeseer.
possibilities are endless, but unfortunately just look at the backup feature - it took them nearly a year. Look at the iOS app, which is still the old one and not even a sign to be new version coming out.
I always have fingers crossed that it will start go get better. In a certain way it is. Nowadays the zipatile connected to WiFi is insanely stable. At the beginning I had it more offline (disconnected from WiFi) than online. It is now great - more stable tham my own smartphone.
Wow Adrian. What a great recommendations. Im sure Sebastian will read the post, on the other hand can imagine that the code is so complicated that they nearly struggle to keep the current hardware's properly working.
What buggers me the most is that after an update some serious things can go wrong that takes time to fix. For example some of the new zipatiles after android upgrade, when you reboot and 1st time the display turns off, you cannot get back it on until you restart. This is now nearly 2 weeks old problem and they only now probably have the fix for it. So it takes time. Which is the most shame as there are so many functionalities that can be developed and would be amazing features. Take just simply some more virtual devices:
like virtual shutter control (window with venetian blind, garage door),
virtual audio player,
presence stimulating scene
not even mentioning the PLUG-IN feature, where 3rd party could be developing own plugins that can be for even sale - similar to homeseer.
possibilities are endless, but unfortunately just look at the backup feature - it took them nearly a year. Look at the iOS app, which is still the old one and not even a sign to be new version coming out.
I always have fingers crossed that it will start go get better. In a certain way it is. Nowadays the zipatile connected to WiFi is insanely stable. At the beginning I had it more offline (disconnected from WiFi) than online. It is now great - more stable tham my own smartphone.
Great Idea: On the other hand (and arguably also a bit off-topic - maybe). I still observe slow execution of even simple rules, means unwanted delay between various actions and some actors not properly executed. On the other hand I have problems that programmed waits (e.g. 600s) sometimes just "wait" say 300s. So there must be something odd with the priority and/or timing of the rule execution. Wait commands should not depend on CPU speed/load and I expect simple rules to execute timely. I mean programming a couple of actors and maybe reading some few digit values was possible nearly real-time already in the early 90's with 8BIT Z80 1MHz microprocessors and just 64kByte of RAM. For sure with no GUI and fancy cloud stuff.
So I still believe there is room to improve the code. Better hardware for sure is a factor for sustainability if you like to keep your controller 5plus years (once its running) - however that is not necessarily good for Zipatos bussiness ;-)
Great Idea: On the other hand (and arguably also a bit off-topic - maybe). I still observe slow execution of even simple rules, means unwanted delay between various actions and some actors not properly executed. On the other hand I have problems that programmed waits (e.g. 600s) sometimes just "wait" say 300s. So there must be something odd with the priority and/or timing of the rule execution. Wait commands should not depend on CPU speed/load and I expect simple rules to execute timely. I mean programming a couple of actors and maybe reading some few digit values was possible nearly real-time already in the early 90's with 8BIT Z80 1MHz microprocessors and just 64kByte of RAM. For sure with no GUI and fancy cloud stuff.
So I still believe there is room to improve the code. Better hardware for sure is a factor for sustainability if you like to keep your controller 5plus years (once its running) - however that is not necessarily good for Zipatos bussiness ;-)
Thank you all for your comments. They are all of great use for us to improve Zipato further.
However, some points I find confusing. For example, why would professional installer taking care about how many new apps will enduser be able to install on security control panel in 5-10 years from now?! If you take a look at all other professional alarm systems, thermostats and Intercoms around the world, you will never find any where it is possible to self install neither single application. Apparently, Nest is super smart thermostat for $250 which was bought by $3.5B, and how many apps you can install on it?
On the other side, you can install multiple apps on Zipatile and it is still working fine. Of course, whenever installing untested apps, you may cause some internal processes to overload the available resources no matter of what kind of hardware you may have inside. If you use normal tablet on the beach, you will probably just restart the tablet or the app, and continue use it But when you are dealing with the security system, home intercom, lighting control panel, and thermostat, than you may find restarting too annoying. So my suggestion would be to by yourself an additional tablet for having fun, and use Zipatile for it's primary purpose only.
@Atilla, backup is up and running. now. Yes, it took us quite some time. However, Zipato backup option is not just an image for local hardware device. It includes backing up local flash, different local radio modules (zwave, zigbee) which are working differently, cloud database, and storing all these files. Afterwards, it requires restoring all these files to their corresponding places while taking care about current status of alarm system, dual internet connectivity etc.. To be even more complex, we have decided to support all versions of linux based Zipabox which has been on market for 4 years now, with 400 and 500 versions of zwave, plus all versions of Android based Zipatile and Zipamini which are of course, totally different. Now, after so much time, when you click the "backup" button, you get only the time stamp, and when you click the "Restore" button, you get everything back as it was on the time of the timestamp. Furthermore, very soon, you will be able to save the backup file as the Template, which you can restore on any other box. I don't know which system in the world can do so at the moment, and how much will take them to do it, but it took us almost a year to do it:-( Some features we add fast, and some we just can't as they are to complicated, especially when you take into consideration the number of other functions which we have to take care about.
Anyway, we are listening what you are saying, and very new model of our controllers will be stronger. We should just be careful not to over design the hardware and make the controller too expensive for what it should primary do. btw. some new ones may come very soon;-)
So please keep up with your comments, and thank you for pushing Zipato forward.
Thank you all for your comments. They are all of great use for us to improve Zipato further.
However, some points I find confusing. For example, why would professional installer taking care about how many new apps will enduser be able to install on security control panel in 5-10 years from now?! If you take a look at all other professional alarm systems, thermostats and Intercoms around the world, you will never find any where it is possible to self install neither single application. Apparently, Nest is super smart thermostat for $250 which was bought by $3.5B, and how many apps you can install on it?
On the other side, you can install multiple apps on Zipatile and it is still working fine. Of course, whenever installing untested apps, you may cause some internal processes to overload the available resources no matter of what kind of hardware you may have inside. If you use normal tablet on the beach, you will probably just restart the tablet or the app, and continue use it But when you are dealing with the security system, home intercom, lighting control panel, and thermostat, than you may find restarting too annoying. So my suggestion would be to by yourself an additional tablet for having fun, and use Zipatile for it's primary purpose only.
@Atilla, backup is up and running. now. Yes, it took us quite some time. However, Zipato backup option is not just an image for local hardware device. It includes backing up local flash, different local radio modules (zwave, zigbee) which are working differently, cloud database, and storing all these files. Afterwards, it requires restoring all these files to their corresponding places while taking care about current status of alarm system, dual internet connectivity etc.. To be even more complex, we have decided to support all versions of linux based Zipabox which has been on market for 4 years now, with 400 and 500 versions of zwave, plus all versions of Android based Zipatile and Zipamini which are of course, totally different. Now, after so much time, when you click the "backup" button, you get only the time stamp, and when you click the "Restore" button, you get everything back as it was on the time of the timestamp. Furthermore, very soon, you will be able to save the backup file as the Template, which you can restore on any other box. I don't know which system in the world can do so at the moment, and how much will take them to do it, but it took us almost a year to do it:-( Some features we add fast, and some we just can't as they are to complicated, especially when you take into consideration the number of other functions which we have to take care about.
Anyway, we are listening what you are saying, and very new model of our controllers will be stronger. We should just be careful not to over design the hardware and make the controller too expensive for what it should primary do. btw. some new ones may come very soon;-)
So please keep up with your comments, and thank you for pushing Zipato forward.
Hi Sebastian. I fully understand the complexity of backup and not blaming(for me it is clear that it is a complex thing, but surely others find it interesting to read your details). Obviously because zipato took a road it chose at the beginning, now the system being cloud based is lot more complex to implement new things. This is the downside of it. It will surely be an awesome feature to be able to use a template to restore to a controller.
Only 1 question? Is it still in the discussion for a Smart license owner to be able to have at least 1 backup point or it will never be a Smart license functionality?
I also agree, Nest cannot do another apps, however a security system or heating system installed by professionals are meant to be working for a long time not only a couple of years. You know Adrian is hard core as he already found different ways how to cleanly tweak the display design of Zipatile, but I also agree to him - the core hardware features should be well and truly good quality and fast hardware. Just look at the problem you had with Zipaboxes as they nearly barely can handle complex requests - im not asking you to defend this, but I could see way enough posts from people who were complaning a while ago (thanks god), like Henrik Fredericson, having to many restarts as the memory clogged up. So Adrian's request has some experience behind. I also find my zipatile sometimes slow but I can handle it. Also, please consider the heating sensor to be places in a way so that it does not need to be adjusted. Most of my experience is that after the zipatile is placed on the wall, the sensor needs to be adjusted down to measure correctly.
As to the features. Yes, some of them takes a while to implement, and some not. As I mentioned, it would be a good idea to implement more virtual devices that can be extremely practical. And plug-ins for other implementations. At least allow possibility for others to implement various WiFi based smarthome products - like Neato, Roomba, or any other that use WiFi and have different API that allows control.
Hi Sebastian. I fully understand the complexity of backup and not blaming(for me it is clear that it is a complex thing, but surely others find it interesting to read your details). Obviously because zipato took a road it chose at the beginning, now the system being cloud based is lot more complex to implement new things. This is the downside of it. It will surely be an awesome feature to be able to use a template to restore to a controller.
Only 1 question? Is it still in the discussion for a Smart license owner to be able to have at least 1 backup point or it will never be a Smart license functionality?
I also agree, Nest cannot do another apps, however a security system or heating system installed by professionals are meant to be working for a long time not only a couple of years. You know Adrian is hard core as he already found different ways how to cleanly tweak the display design of Zipatile, but I also agree to him - the core hardware features should be well and truly good quality and fast hardware. Just look at the problem you had with Zipaboxes as they nearly barely can handle complex requests - im not asking you to defend this, but I could see way enough posts from people who were complaning a while ago (thanks god), like Henrik Fredericson, having to many restarts as the memory clogged up. So Adrian's request has some experience behind. I also find my zipatile sometimes slow but I can handle it. Also, please consider the heating sensor to be places in a way so that it does not need to be adjusted. Most of my experience is that after the zipatile is placed on the wall, the sensor needs to be adjusted down to measure correctly.
As to the features. Yes, some of them takes a while to implement, and some not. As I mentioned, it would be a good idea to implement more virtual devices that can be extremely practical. And plug-ins for other implementations. At least allow possibility for others to implement various WiFi based smarthome products - like Neato, Roomba, or any other that use WiFi and have different API that allows control.
Interesting comments, from both Attila and Sebastian. I too am glad the backup is implemented, even given the timeframe. And Sebastian is right, the way they have done it is a very good version due to the different OS and hardware specs of different controllers even though all devices are very similar too, all running on android with Java and arm processors.
But i dont get the view on Nest thermostat or other security devices not running other apps? Is the Zipatile just a security system, just a thermostat, no its a Home Automation controller. And like home automation controllers from Smarthings, Vera, Fibaro, Homeseer, it needs to control other products. It is also designed as a wall tablet, so you are saying I need to have One Zipatile installed next to a IPAD just so I can control my Nest thermostat, Yamaha MusicCast, UBNT video, Weather service?
If Zipato do not support them directly then we need to add the apps. There is no way for us to add support for products otherwise. Basically the Zipatile is a great wall tablet with extra features. It works well in a small installation where it can be the only controller. But on a large scale installation, the Zipatiles (as you should install more than one) should simply be dumb terminals with a more powerful Zipabox running the system. Until the Clustering is sorted out properly to work in LAN solution without cloud dependency, backup works with a Cluster, if a Zipatile drops offline another Zipatile can pick up the slack so the workload can be shared, then a more powerful version is needed. For me it would be a Zipabox or Zipamini version that supports USB antennas, or something like this http://protocolbrickz.com/
How about an SDK from Zipato so developers can start creating drivers for you. I mean i see many would-be developers struggling to even be able to logon with session ID, tokens, etc and create simple local programming for their own app. https://community.zipato.com/topic/api-v2-login-jquery-ajax-javascript its not the first time i've seen someone try this then give up and go elsewhere.
I mean the voice feedback and screen popups are nice, but how developing the IOS app, create some virtual devices that we can create inputs and outputs for.
Overall my zipabox is still more reliable than my Zipatile, just underpowered. And when you start adding SIP, intercom, camera feeds, and cluster to a Zipatile i am sure it becomes less powerful than a Zipabox.
Want to save money? Create a Zipatile with no protocols, just wifi and bluetooth. Then have multiple usbs (or what ever type of connection you want) for plug in usb sticks for Z-wave, zigbee, enocean, etc support. A zipabox modular version of the Zipatile. Then you simply need to produce one type of zipatile for all countries. One product, unlimited stock and manufacture quantities, then simply add the required modules/usbs to orders. It is the different frequencies and certifications worldwide that cause the issues for MOQ's now you eliminate this.
It also provides a cheap Zipatile to act as dumb terminals for installations. For any brand or installer. Have a slide in Nameplate to cover the Zipato brand, and Control4/Smarthings/Fibaro/Vera/etc installers can use it for example.
I know, i'm a genius. And I bet you tell me its too late to change now.
Interesting comments, from both Attila and Sebastian. I too am glad the backup is implemented, even given the timeframe. And Sebastian is right, the way they have done it is a very good version due to the different OS and hardware specs of different controllers even though all devices are very similar too, all running on android with Java and arm processors.
But i dont get the view on Nest thermostat or other security devices not running other apps? Is the Zipatile just a security system, just a thermostat, no its a Home Automation controller. And like home automation controllers from Smarthings, Vera, Fibaro, Homeseer, it needs to control other products. It is also designed as a wall tablet, so you are saying I need to have One Zipatile installed next to a IPAD just so I can control my Nest thermostat, Yamaha MusicCast, UBNT video, Weather service?
If Zipato do not support them directly then we need to add the apps. There is no way for us to add support for products otherwise. Basically the Zipatile is a great wall tablet with extra features. It works well in a small installation where it can be the only controller. But on a large scale installation, the Zipatiles (as you should install more than one) should simply be dumb terminals with a more powerful Zipabox running the system. Until the Clustering is sorted out properly to work in LAN solution without cloud dependency, backup works with a Cluster, if a Zipatile drops offline another Zipatile can pick up the slack so the workload can be shared, then a more powerful version is needed. For me it would be a Zipabox or Zipamini version that supports USB antennas, or something like this http://protocolbrickz.com/
How about an SDK from Zipato so developers can start creating drivers for you. I mean i see many would-be developers struggling to even be able to logon with session ID, tokens, etc and create simple local programming for their own app. https://community.zipato.com/topic/api-v2-login-jquery-ajax-javascript its not the first time i've seen someone try this then give up and go elsewhere.
I mean the voice feedback and screen popups are nice, but how developing the IOS app, create some virtual devices that we can create inputs and outputs for.
Overall my zipabox is still more reliable than my Zipatile, just underpowered. And when you start adding SIP, intercom, camera feeds, and cluster to a Zipatile i am sure it becomes less powerful than a Zipabox.
Want to save money? Create a Zipatile with no protocols, just wifi and bluetooth. Then have multiple usbs (or what ever type of connection you want) for plug in usb sticks for Z-wave, zigbee, enocean, etc support. A zipabox modular version of the Zipatile. Then you simply need to produce one type of zipatile for all countries. One product, unlimited stock and manufacture quantities, then simply add the required modules/usbs to orders. It is the different frequencies and certifications worldwide that cause the issues for MOQ's now you eliminate this.
It also provides a cheap Zipatile to act as dumb terminals for installations. For any brand or installer. Have a slide in Nameplate to cover the Zipato brand, and Control4/Smarthings/Fibaro/Vera/etc installers can use it for example.
I know, i'm a genius. And I bet you tell me its too late to change now.
+1 vote for Zipabox "Plus". I like Zipatile and also think it is perfect for small installations, it has nice features too like SIP server and Doorbird (still under development in my point of view, for whatever reason), etc. To this moment I still rely on my Zipabox to handle all the devices at home, why? Zipatile battery sucks big time, after 6 months of usage as Wall tablet (always powered) I found that the battery lasts now about 15 minutes, then if you have power failures, bye bye home automation and most important, bye bye security system. Zipabox battery lasts almost a day still after two years of usage (backup module) also 3G internet backup is a good idea. Also I think the fact that Zipabox is modular, makes the solution more flexible for many types of user, from the very basic and for the ones that need several protocols integrated together.
Issues on Zipabox are still present, very rare, but still present. A week ago I experimented an endless "reboot loop", it lasted for several hours and it didn't stop until I completely shut off my Zipabox waited a few seconds and then powered it up again, support is digging into it. Zipatile, which has more power, could do a better job in that matter but without a nice battery backup is a no go to me, maybe once the "template" backup mode is available I could transfer all my stuff to zipatile and give it a try.
Also agree with the backup feature, and also understand that now, specially with cluster, it is very complicated, but there should be at least a free basic backup option in my mind. Creating templates for example I agree it is an advanced feature that I would pay PRO to get it.
Regarding cluster, +1 on fail-safe controllers, that would be an awesome feature, otherwise to me is difficult to justify $100 per controller just to access to their sensors in native way. I think the fact that having an alarm system based on internet (while using sensors in a cluster) is not a good idea. This would make the "Secondary controller" option a better one in my mind, however this is still not posible on zipato systems.
+1 vote for Zipabox "Plus". I like Zipatile and also think it is perfect for small installations, it has nice features too like SIP server and Doorbird (still under development in my point of view, for whatever reason), etc. To this moment I still rely on my Zipabox to handle all the devices at home, why? Zipatile battery sucks big time, after 6 months of usage as Wall tablet (always powered) I found that the battery lasts now about 15 minutes, then if you have power failures, bye bye home automation and most important, bye bye security system. Zipabox battery lasts almost a day still after two years of usage (backup module) also 3G internet backup is a good idea. Also I think the fact that Zipabox is modular, makes the solution more flexible for many types of user, from the very basic and for the ones that need several protocols integrated together.
Issues on Zipabox are still present, very rare, but still present. A week ago I experimented an endless "reboot loop", it lasted for several hours and it didn't stop until I completely shut off my Zipabox waited a few seconds and then powered it up again, support is digging into it. Zipatile, which has more power, could do a better job in that matter but without a nice battery backup is a no go to me, maybe once the "template" backup mode is available I could transfer all my stuff to zipatile and give it a try.
Also agree with the backup feature, and also understand that now, specially with cluster, it is very complicated, but there should be at least a free basic backup option in my mind. Creating templates for example I agree it is an advanced feature that I would pay PRO to get it.
Regarding cluster, +1 on fail-safe controllers, that would be an awesome feature, otherwise to me is difficult to justify $100 per controller just to access to their sensors in native way. I think the fact that having an alarm system based on internet (while using sensors in a cluster) is not a good idea. This would make the "Secondary controller" option a better one in my mind, however this is still not posible on zipato systems.
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